| Keith Sanborn via nettime-l on Mon, 14 Jul 2025 19:30:43 +0200 (CEST) |
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| Re: <nettime> Support Palestine Action and go to jail ... |
This sounds a bit like so-whatism. There are virtually no casualties from any of the pathetic efforts made by Hamas to bring the violence back to Israel. I do hear about them. BBC coverage and France 24 keep pretty well informed. How is Hamas complicit in the starvation? You assert this but offer no proof. Have they joined the IDF, the settlers, or the US contractors murdering children waiting for food and medicine? More so-whatism. Hamas certainly brought down reprisals but collective punishment which becomes genocide is hardly a moral response. Killing 35 people as collateral damage to kill 1 Hamas member: is that acceptable morally? Please no more so-whatism, even of the mildest sort. Keith > On Jul 14, 2025, at 1:19 PM, Nina Temporär via nettime-l <nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> wrote: > > Hamas is also bombing Israel - especially civilians, although in Israel easy to differentiate - you just don't hear of it bc of the low number of casualties thanks to the iron dome. > > Also, Hamas is complicit not only in the starvation but also bombing of their own citizens. They inflicted a whole war upon them. They could have easily ended this by returning the hostages. > > Thanks, in any case, for trying to make some sense in the midst of all the bias > > Best N > >> Gesendet: Montag, den 14.07.2025 um 14:16 Uhr >> Von: "Oliver Gassner via nettime-l" <nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> >> An: "<nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets" <nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> >> Cc: "Oliver Gassner" <fraktal@gmx.de> >> Betreff: Re: <nettime> Support Palestine Action and go to jail ... >> >>> Am Mo., 14. Juli 2025 um 11:54 Uhr schrieb mp via nettime-l < >>> nettime-l@lists.nettime.org>: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 14/07/2025 08:33, Oliver Gassner via nettime-l wrote: >>>> Nope, "WE" did not forget that. >>>> >>>> I opted for more aspects to be included in the argument. >>>> >>>> It is somewhat sad if that is rejected. >>>> >>>> Both sides are at fault. >>> >>> In a genocide, for the simple person, the ordinary human, it seems >>> somewhat reasonable to choose sides. >>> >> >> Well, I for example am not "naturally" on one side, although I carry as a >> one and only passport a German one and feel a certraiun responsibility for >> a 'never again' that can be interpreted strictly (never againb a Holocaust >> demanding Jewish victims) or looselyx (never again genocide). >> So I choose a position where I look at the situation and ask myself: "What >> is need for a peaceful resolution of the situation?" >> There is no necvessity to take up a gun and join the one or the other side. >> >> I also find hardly a sensible human that is fond of Genocide in general or >> specifically against the Palestinians. >> My information is that the hardliners on the Israeli side and the >> hardliners in Hamas have a different view here. Hamas, I am told, I have >> not read any oprimary sources, has a policy of killing all Jews or at least >> all those in Israel. >> >> So I think it _is_possible to say: >> "You are wrong (attacking civiuliarns, raping women, killing partygoers) - >> and you, too (bombing civilians, starving civilians, being violent >> settler)." >> . >> Saying: "Oh, this is genocide and this is self-defense"--- well, I find >> this hard. This is not a case of "This is a bird, this is a plane." >> >> In summary up to here: Taking sides does not seem to solve the problem. >> >> Conversely, would it be reasonable to say something like: Well, the Jews >>> had banking connections, so they were also at fault for the Holocaust? >>> >> >> Um? I am not even sure an old or new Nazi would put it THAT simply ;) So I >> am ignoring this line. >> >> >>> At any rate, West Asia has been a battle ground and frontier for >>> European identity, trade routes and colonialism for a thousand years. >>> >> >> Yup. >> >> Richard Lionheart was the good guy, right? >>> >> >> I don't care ;) >> Making an argument like: "The oppressed can to anything to get back to >> their oppressors." seems just dependent on who defines him/herself as >> oppressed. (I find it interesting to watch 'Andor' Season 1 AND 2.... makes >> the rebellion look different from SW 4... >> >> Palestine is not merely about Hamas and IDF. That's just a contemporary >>> snapshot. >>> >> >> It is nice tto see we agree on something. Let's work from here onwards ;) >> >> >>> As Pankaj Mishra (more or less) says: Palestine today signifies the >>> collapse of the western world/word order. >>> >> >> Uhm, not sure. >> >> I find it interesting I am told by some people, that the Jews, I mean: >> Israelis are 'white'. They are surely not perceived this way in Europe. (I >> am also told Turkish immigrants in Germany are 'white', which is probably >> not what most Germ,ans would 'see'. >> So I find it hard to define things like the "westren world" (looking at >> trump, is he part of that?= Or other classifications. May they be queer, >> gay, white etc. >> >> >>> In that vein, the genocide becomes a systemic inevitability, a convulsion. >>> >>> >> Not sure I understand that sentence. So you say: One group needs to kill >> the other to have peace? Germans and Fremnch have been killing each other >> for centuries (after being 'brothers' dynastically). We managed to stop and >> maybe another 50 years and all grudge is gone. >> >> >>> The emperor is not naked yet -- but his fine fabric of moral >>> superiority, Reason, rule of law, is nothing but war, and in flames. >>> >>> Then we prepare to build from love, with care, in the ashes... >>> >> >> OK, lemme say it like this: I do not want to say anything about YOU, but >> that sentence to me as a German rings like some speech snippet >> frem 1933-45... >> (Then again I still need to read 'Der Untergang des Abendlandes' and I am >> not sure I ever will.= >> >> Oliver >> -- >> # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission >> # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, >> # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets >> # more info: https://www.nettime.org >> # contact: nettime-l-owner@lists.nettime.org > -- > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: https://www.nettime.org > # contact: nettime-l-owner@lists.nettime.org -- # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: https://www.nettime.org # contact: nettime-l-owner@lists.nettime.org